Surprise boost for Sir Ian’s Union Terrace Gardens plans

By Ryan Crighton

Published: 25/05/2010

Sir Ian Wood’s plans for Union Terrace Gardens in Aberdeen received a surprise boost last night after the incoming boss of Scotland’s new arts and culture body praised the project.

Councillors recently voted in favour of the businessman’s £140million vision to transform the city centre, which will involve raising the historic gardens to street level.

The proposal, being steered by Aberdeen City and Shire Economic Future (Acsef), divided city residents, and has ended plans for Peacock Visual Arts to build a £13.5million centre in the gardens.

The group has now been left fighting for survival, angering the north-east arts community.

Andrew Dixon, who will take charge of Creative Scotland when it replaces the Scottish Arts Council and Scottish Screen in July, said the Acsef project was a real opportunity for the city. He is now calling for everyone involved to take some time to “analyse what the best mix of facilities is for the next generation” to make sure there is still a cultural “heart” to the project.

He said: “A city the size of Aberdeen deserves the best possible public spaces and cultural spaces and I think everybody is striving to do things that are ambitious.

“What is important is that we build cultural facilities and organisations which are fit for the next 100 years.

“So taking a bit of time to get partnerships in place now will serve the population of Aberdeen well for the next generation.”

He added: “Clearly, City Square is a world-class site, but it has also got a railway and a road cutting the city in half. It (the city square project) is a real opportunity to do something interesting for the future of Aberdeen.

“Quality public space and cultural space is central to the character of any city. When you are taking decisions around the facilities, it is important that there is a strong artistic heart and locations which are accessible for many generations to come.”

Mr Dixon also praised Sir Ian’s promise to put forward £50million of his own money towards the project.

He said: “It seems to me that there is no lack of ambition or vision. They are all ingredients to make something special. The level of philanthropy is something that great Victorian facilities were built on and many of the cultural facilities have relied on local patronage. I think that in this day and age it is good to see people are willing to invest back in their cities.”

Reader's Comments

Another kiss @rse sook in Wood's pocket.
desperate red
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He dose not sound as if he is giving it 100% backing, at best he is hoping for some sort of compromise with all groups. Hears hoping eh. If you read the other article regarding 6 Bn of cuts it looks as if it will never get built.
Robert Horne
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WHO???? Never heard of him!!!
Stan Domeracki
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Oh yes, he must be dodgy if he's speaking in favourable terms about the development. Please leave your blinkers at the front door!! Desperate Red, I've seen your comment on the Dons and you're nothing but a pesemistic, doomsayer.
Joe Bloggs
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We already have something special at the "world class City Square site", Union Terrace Gardens. If you want to build some flat square or gardens go build it somewhere else inthe centre, there is no justification for thus location and plenty for other sites in Anerdeen Centre
Brian Christie
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Dear Joe Bloggs its so easy to make personal attacks hidden behind an alias. Pr@t. My comment "Another kiss @rse sook in Wood's pocket." stands.
desperate red
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Joe, i'l give you this one. I still stand by my views, but im not going to try defame his. the man has hopes and good for him. Really, i'm actually glad that someone does, because it wad getting pretty dire for the csp. Since the PVA defo wont be part of the csp, for the contreversy it has caused (fairr play to lyndsay gordon for showing moral fibre), and this guy wants culture in the csp, maybe we can hope for two cultural facilities in aberdeen. I don't share that optimism, but hey, this will drag on for ages anyway, so what does an opinion today or tomnoro matter, since 10,000 opinions of the public didnt, 122 of RIAS comitte didnt, and 40-odd of aberdeen architects society didnt.. Joe, applauded any development in aberdeen yet? again, not being sarky, genuinely interested, and maybe reaching for some feeling of optimism.
Ved M
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Finally someone with common sense. Joe Bloggs keep it going we might just achieve something here in the face of all these doomsayers.
Sandy Milne
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To be fair to the guy, it all depends on the story he was spun. I had a reply from a SNP Councillor who made the whole thing sound like the Eden Project. So goodness alone knows who is now writing Acsef's script. Botanical Gardens? I dont think so. And still none of them (clllrs. Acsef, anybody?) will explain to me what the monolithic superstructure to raise(raze) the gardens will consist of, or what it will be used for. Apart from the architects who post on this site, who have been consistent in their opinion(and valued it is for a layperson). Hide the concrete? What with? Compost? I also hope that he had the courtesy to meet with Peacocks as well.
dorothy bothwell
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Careful careful everyone! If you take your time reading it you realize that there may be a wee bit of spice added by the local press. Everything has to get run through the ACSEF rhetoric mill first!
gabrielle reith
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Lunatic Fringe - 55% of people who voted RIAS Jonathan Meade Aberdeen Architects Soc. 10,000 objections (on petition) Finance Expert warning on TIF Articles in The Herald " in The Scotsman Urban Realm (architects magazine) Historic Scotland article on STV Ladies of the Presbytery Annie Lennox - world famous singer and charity fund raiser. .........good company to be in.
dorothy bothwell
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Careful careful everyone! If you take your time reading it you realize that there may be a wee bit of spice added by the local press. Everything has to get run through the ACSEF rhetoric mill first!
gabrielle reith
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The guy has no choice, it's clear he's simply going to try and get the best from a terrible situation. But he needs to realise North East business and ACC could not care less about culture or heritage. What they want are big, ugly ideas they can brag about when they're off to oil conferences or the Middle East (where it's infinitely worse than here).
Funky Chunk
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Dorothy the only person mentioning the Lunatic Fringe in all this is you. Must be some form of complex or at very worst the truth!!!
Sandy Milne
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Careful careful everyone! If you take your time reading it you realize that there may be a wee bit of spice added by the local press. Everything has to get run through the ACSEF rhetoric mill first!
gabrielle reith
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Your on the wine gums early to day Sandy
Robert Horne
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Gabrielle ask your hubby how to avoid double posts he was quick to advise me.
Sandy Milne
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Sandy, you only ever let yourself down with personal digs at others. Stick to the topic.
G M
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Who cares, whatever. The red ones are my favourites mmm lovely!!!
Sandy Milne
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Sandy, I thought you were away to Milano today? Was going to wish you a "buon viaggio" and ask if you could bring me back some quality cheese? Anyway I need to get to work now, have a fine day. Auguri.
Alasdair Johnston
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"Quangocrat in careful choice of words" would be an equally valid headline. The article is worth re-reading with great attention. His words do not praise the CSP at all, he praises *the site*. WRT Sir Ian's Woods offer of cash, he uses litotes to deliver the back-hander "there is no lack of ambition or vision there". The rest of his words are of a nature which could equally be turned against the CSP. If we read *just the words that Dixon has said* without the frame that the P&J put them in, we might put a very different interpretation on his meaning.
Ludvig von Mises
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Careful careful everyone! If you take your time reading it you realize that there may be a wee bit of spice added by the local press. Everything has to get run through the ACSEF rhetoric mill first!
gabrielle reith
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My spin detector just went into overdrive. Remember the bit in Dumb & Dumber where Jim Carey asks Lauren Holly "What are the chances that you would go out with a guy like me?" to which she replies "Oh about a one in a million", then Carey seizes on that with "so what you're saying is, that there's a chance!"
Craig Adams
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Regarding the loss of the Award-winning Brisac Gonzales design for Peacock Visual Arts in the City's iconic Union Terrace Gardens, Dixon said that we should have “analysed what the best mix of facilities is for the next generation”, to make sure there is still a cultural “heart” to the project.
Ludvig von Mises
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Upon seeing the city's beautiful Victorian sunken garden where the PVA scheme was to have been sensitively sited, Mr Dixon agreed that the site should not be sacrificed for one man's overarching zeal. He said: “A city the size of Aberdeen deserves the best possible public spaces and cultural spaces and I think everybody is striving to do things that are ambitious."
Ludvig von Mises
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Upon learning that PVA were now in danger of collapse, having no long-term permanent home, the incoming chief of Creative Scotland lamented, “What is important is that we build cultural facilities and organisations which are fit for the next 100 years." Blasting ACSEF's intransigence for failing to fit in with the already approved and largely funded scheme for Peacock's new home he fumed, "taking a bit of time to get partnerships in place now will serve the population of Aberdeen well for the next generation.”
Ludvig von Mises
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Arts Council funding for a major, iconic Contemporary Arts Centre in Union Terrace Gardens was lost because of the ill-timed intervention of ACSEF. Commenting on ACSEF's plan, the new arts chief thundered “Clearly, it is a world-class site, but it has also got a railway and a road cutting the city in half. It is a real opportunity to do something interesting for the future of Aberdeen. Quality public space and cultural space is central to the character of any city. When you are taking decisions around the facilities, it is important that there is a strong artistic heart and locations which are accessible for many generations to come.”
Ludvig von Mises
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When asked to comment on the pledge of £50m from a local tycoon which scuppered the PVA project, the arts quango supremo smirked, “it seems to me that there is no lack of ambition or vision there" he said.
Ludvig von Mises
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Liked the comment." Fit for the next 100 years. What was the comments of this type of building, or whatever lasting more than 25 without a lot of money being used to maintain it. Long term future for our next generation. Yes as long as they have a pot of gold at the end of the ACSEF rainbow. Better keep an eye on Edinburg, I believe their railway runs through the city and cuts it half. That the next "Vision". Glasgows parks, well they could be better used as Malls. If this is what the future of Scotalnd creative future is it looks pretty grim. I see that Sandy Milne and Joe Bloggs still have not looked at the web site of the architect Martha ?? or even the whole of the ACSEF web site. If they had I cannot see how they can continue to blast the people who would like to keep the gardens in one way or another. We are the doomsayers. Maybe maybe not. At least we don't have rose coloured specs on. You can see the forward planning though. Denburn health centre and car park demolished,now just across the road, access to Union Terrace Garden. And what will go up in the place of the Health centre?? Have a guess. Next will be Woolmanhill old hospital. The places for their next planning is already on the web site at ACC. Westburn park was marked down for development as well. Another green space. They would be better looking at the existing oil companies to see when they will get on the road for the next energy supply. Wind and water. Otherwise all those big building housing the oil companies, will be left pretty empty and that won;t help the retail business either.
minnie mo
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What's that about Westburn Park?
Ludvig von Mises
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Yes good on you Joe Bloggs, at least some positive thinking instead of all of the negative commentators that have been lambasting this and many more progressive thinking projects in the Aberdeen area, it always seems to be the same people commentating and ranting and raving, no sign of positive criticism, only doom and gloom from the few, so Joe Bloggs keep on going.
charles hay
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Charles, what exactly is "positive" about the abandonment of a progressive development with 75% of its funding in place and full planning permission? Celebrating the demise of this project in favour of a speculative scheme with an enormous funding gap, very little chance of obtaining planning gain and little by way of public support seems most odd.
Richard Fraser
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Another busy day in the park by the looks of that photo. Give it a rest doomsayers. The sample size of the survey was very small in comparison to the actual population of Aberdeen. 10'000 objections, WOW, that's almost 5% of the city population. Annie Lennox, where does she choose to live again? Oh yeah, London. Charles, I think you've summed it up perfectly. Imagine if half the energy spent ranting was used in a positive way, the city centre may not be in such a sorry state as it is now. It's always just doom, doom, doom, doom, doom. Try thinking outside the box for once!
Chris Duncan
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I thought there was apublic sector hiring freeze. The phrase incoming boss should not be allowed.
Alan Craigie
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Oh and where dose Sir Alex Ferguson live again
Robert Horne
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I thought there was a public sector hiring freeze. The phrase incoming boss should not be allowed.
Alan Craigie
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That's the problem Chris PVW was thinking out side the box unlike Acsef who just want to build a box
Robert Horne
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@ Chris. Why is opposing the City Square doomsaying? In what way is opposing (by ACSEF's own admission) an ill-defined scheme which scuppered an award-winning progressive proposal which was 70% funded 'ranting'? Rather, I think its Sir Ian and ACSEF who have been indulging in doomsaying by suggesting that this scheme (whatever it is) is the only way to ensure a future for this town. Please try to convince me - I've asked again and again - by what mechanism will the CSP secure Aberdeen's future? How will that be achieved. All that ACSEF seem to say is 'just because'.
Ludvig von Mises
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Why would you call this "a surprise" -- just look at the name of this new Quango: "Creative Scotland" -- gone is the "Arts". This has been obvious for a few years now, it is scrapping arts from the landscape and replacing it by creative industries. Replacing potential dissent by bowing to corporatism. Scotland is moving away from "Victorian philanthropism" to "corporate misanthropism" -- congratulations and enjoy -- or dissent!
Peter Troxler
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Thank god a man of reason Chris Duncan, No matter what goes in that area, someone somewhere will moan about it, boo hoo theres not enough grass, if its a nice day no one thinks oh I'll go to union terrace gardens!!!, they go to duthie park etc PVA are cutting there nose off to spite there face, we want nothing to do with the project now, well if it houses art like on thier website maybe its a good thing. Like I said before, Aberdeen objects to everything and all the new projects take years to progress because of it!!! It doesnt help that all the papers advertise the negitive parts.
Who Cares
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On the same note chris. Why did ACSEF bring in the comments from Alex Ferguson, where does he stay???? If it was only 10,000 objectors ( which you are forgetting the ones that said no but the box said yes) compared to the ones that did not vote. Not for the lack of being informed. We had 2 months of a daily propaganda from the press. There were speeches in the Malls, even went up to Peterhead. You could text, phone go on line or vote at the Malls where they had a stand. So it is the same at any thing that requires a vote. Just like an election. 100% of the people do not vote but a government is still formed when they have a majority. Seems you don't see the connection. A majority is when the people who voted for a yes outnumbered the ones who voted no. That is what a count is. Majority wins, normally. One thing, if this CSP is such a great idea, why was is squashed twice before. This concept was not dreamed up by ACSEF nor Wood, It was a concept that was at least 50 years old. That was when the council and the people did not want to lose their garden, it was the heritage and the history that they decided to keep. But for the ones who like a concrete plaza and the destruction or mature trees, that would not mean a lot.
minnie mo
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Minnie Mo you mention propaganda, you keep saying concrete plaza have you even seen the plans, and whats was the PVA greenhouse made of sticks!!!
Who Cares
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I have no problem with Sir Ian Wood's offer to throw in a load of money to a City Square project to ensure his own name is long associated with philanthropy to the city. My problem is with his insistence that it be at the expense of USG when there are other places (St Nicks?)which would be far more popular and (probably) better-used. More 'green' could be added in an area presently with none (other than the graveyard....). The council and Sir Ian are intransigent, the objectors have a 'lunatic fringe', PVA are on the skids, and everyone is getting abuse from everyone else. Nobody seems to have heard of 'compromise' and all are out for their own agenda. Its a sad state of affairs to have reached, when a compromise of any sort is never on the table, and alternative ideas are shelved, or not even discussed. Shame on all the officials concerned, and particular shame to our elected representatives.
Chris Smith
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I have no problem with Sir Ian Wood's offer to throw in a load of money to a City Square project to ensure his own name is long associated with philanthropy to the city. My problem is with his insistence that it be at the expense of USG when there are other places (St Nicks?)which would be far more popular and (probably) better-used. More 'green' could be added in an area presently with none (other than the graveyard....). The council and Sir Ian are intransigent, the objectors have a 'lunatic fringe', PVA are on the skids, and everyone is getting abuse from everyone else. Nobody seems to have heard of 'compromise' and all are out for their own agenda. Its a sad state of affairs to have reached, when a compromise of any sort is never on the table, and alternative ideas are shelved, or not even discussed. Shame on all the officials concerned, and particular shame to our elected representatives.
Chris Smith
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@ Who Cares. My objections to the CSP are two-fold. Firstly, I'm at this blow to the creative community in Aberdeen. This decision is bad for my business. Secondly, I deplore the *arbitrary* destruction of something good, that being the Victorian Union Terrace Gardens. The Brisac Gonzales scheme would have satisfied me on both counts - a boost to the arts in the NE while retaining the best part of the gardens. This neat solution has been abandoned for something which, as yet, by ACSEF's own admission, is ill-defined. What we do know about it is that it *will*, for no well explained reason, comprehensively destroy the Victorian sunken gardens at Union Terrace. I'll ask you, maybe you, by contrast to all other proponents of the CSP can answer me: by what mechanism will the CSP secure Aberdeen's future? How will that be achieved? I'd really like to see an answer to this. If I get a good answer, maybe I'll change my mind.
Ludvig von Mises
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I will support Aberdeen's "Elvis" & his vision as long as it's a 100% contribution from his own tight pocket..........
Fiona Cooper
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Actually, my objections are three-fold. I also object to the slavish boosterism that this newspaper is displaying "for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage; but nobody to know what it is." Our very own 'North Sea Bubble'? :)
Ludvig von Mises
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I have no problem with Sir Ian Wood's offer to throw in a load of money to a City Square project to ensure his own name is long associated with philanthropy to the city. My problem is with his insistence that it be at the expense of USG when there are other places (St Nicks?)which would be far more popular and (probably) better-used. More 'green' could be added in an area presently with none (other than the graveyard....). The council and Sir Ian are intransigent, the objectors have a 'lunatic fringe', PVA are on the skids, and everyone is getting abuse from everyone else. Nobody seems to have heard of 'compromise' and all are out for their own agenda. Its a sad state of affairs to have reached, when a compromise of any sort is never on the table, and alternative ideas are shelved, or not even discussed. Shame on all the officials concerned, and particular shame to our elected representatives.
Chris Smith
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I have no problem with Sir Ian Wood's offer to throw in a load of money to a City Square project to ensure his own name is long associated with philanthropy to the city. My problem is with his insistence that it be at the expense of USG when there are other places (St Nicks?)which would be far more popular and (probably) better-used. More 'green' could be added in an area presently with none (other than the graveyard....). The council and Sir Ian are intransigent, the objectors have a 'lunatic fringe', PVA are on the skids, and everyone is getting abuse from everyone else. Nobody seems to have heard of 'compromise' and all are out for their own agenda. Its a sad state of affairs to have reached, when a compromise of any sort is never on the table, and alternative ideas are shelved, or not even discussed. Shame on all the officials concerned, and particular shame to our elected representatives.
Chris Smith
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I met Stephen Hawkins at the weekend & he fully supports the idea. The existing gardens are a bit difficult with the old wheelchair & being invited into the bushes by strangers to see some stars was a bit of a concern.
Alan Hadley
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Will someone please tell me how to avoid double posting? I press the 'post comment' button only once.......
Chris Smith
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Will someone please tell me how to avoid double posting? I press the 'post comment' button only once.......
Chris Smith
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Will someone please tell me how to avoid double posting? I press the 'post comment' button only once.......
Chris Smith
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Chris, don't refresh the page to see if your comment has appeared. Each time you do that the comment is added again. I discovered that the hard way too. You are not alone.
Alasdair Johnston
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How many times are we going to hear the words "concrete square" trotted out? There's no chance that this is simply going to be a concrete square. Do you seriously think that the tender will be put out with the remit of; 1. Square 2. Concrete Wow, I'm sure all landscape architects will be salivating at the prospect of that. I think a lot of you need to get the blinkers off and just think what could be achieved here. Have any of you actually looked at some of the designs the students came up with? If those can be created by students, I'm sure internationally renowned architects will have some fantastic ideas. Also do you think Mr Wood wants this to end as some kind of eyesore with his name attached to it. I seriously doubt it. Also, to think that the PVA would have no impact on the gardens is almost ridiculous. How would they have got heavy machinery in there and what would that have done to the existing grass and trees? Ludvig,I'm also dubious to how the csp will secure Aberdeen's future but it would sure give the regeneration of the city and it's heart a badly needed kick start because at the moment it's an embarrassment to its inhabitants and visitors.
Chris Duncan
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Will someone please tell me how to avoid double posting? I press the 'post comment' button only once.......
Chris Smith
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Thanks Alasdair.
Chris Smith
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Who Cares, I hope you won't think this observation a rant but one very good reason for PVA not getting involved in the City Square Project is timescale. PVA has less than 2 years left on the lease of its current premises. The City Square Project might never happen and even if it does it will be considerably more than 2 years before it gets off the ground. (I have a wee bet with Jock William that it won't happen before 2020, with a fine dinner in the civic square in Perugia resting on the final outcome!!)
Alasdair Johnston
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Ludvig, you may find this interesting, again what happens elsewher in the country today.. C.I.A.O are a very good and small practice.. http://www.urbanrealm.co.uk/news/2399/City_Architecture_Office_complete_7_years_in_the_making_arts_centre.html
Ved M
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Chris Duncan, I hope the City Square Project doesn't go ahead for a number of reasons. Being against development is not one of those reasons. I supported the PVA proposal because it was a beautiful design, an ingeneous use of the available space and topography, sensitive to the existing architecture and demonstrably achievable. Union Terrace Gardens could be greatly improved at a fraction of the cost of the proposed CSP (which will most likely exceed £300 million pounds at a conservative estimate. £140 Million is a fantasy figure plucked out of someone's febrile imagination!) - I use the gardens and also appreciate the beauty of the mature trees as I cycle past almost daily. Once those trees have gone we will not see anything like them in our lifetime, no matter how imaginative, creative and visionary the design of the CSP. Mature trees need a huge depth of soil and rather a lot of time. Dealing with the gardens' wee problems by raising them to street evel is the horticultural equivalent of amputating a leg to deal with an ingrowing toenail.
Alasdair Johnston
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@ Chris Duncan. It is true, of course, that the city centre appears down-at-heel and in need of a regeneration kick-start. I'm most certainly not against regeneration and re-development. The question pressing us all is whether this proposed *comprehensive* redevelopment is a desirable, appropriate and achievable method of securing this regeneration within a reasonable time-frame and cost. Even if it is, it still does not answer the question of how this will secure an economic future for Aberdeen and the NE. Perhaps (and I really hope it is) if and when this scheme is completed it will be of the highest possible quality of design and construction. But so what? If the rest of the economy is non-existent, the CSP will represent nothing but a Cargo Cult, a Potemkin Village.
Ludvig von Mises
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Does my delinquent teenage son become a model citizen if I put up new curtains?
Ludvig von Mises
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Ludvig, I'd be confident that new curtains would resolve your son's delinquency issues and secure your entire family's economic future once North Sea Oil runs out. Go for it. I'll give you £50 towards the cost as long as I get to choose the colour.
Alasdair Johnston
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Isn't the 'Bon Accord Quarter' project going to provide Aberdeen with better pedestrian space in the city centre? Surely the prposed square on the St Nicholas House site will provide ample public space for a city of this size. Perhaps we should concentrate time and money seeing existing projects through to completion? Besides, I seem to remember these Union Terrace plans being put forward for lottery funds at the turn of the Millenium? It couldn't get funding then, so why should it now? We are in the middle of a financial crisis afterall.
Stuart MacVicar
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Mr Dixon tells us that : "A city the size of Aberdeen deserves the best possible public spaces and cultural spaces." One presumes he was (or is) unaware of the Peacock scheme now torpedoed by the City Square project. A city the size of Aberdeen deserves development that is commensurate with its scale (e.g. the Peacock scheme). It does not require a development that will be the size of Red Square in Moscow (i.e. the City Square project). One would hope that Mr Dixon has some eye for aesthetics given his role. On the evidence of this outing he has a long way to go.......
Mike Miller
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Dear Press & Journal, It's "UP TO" £50million, It's not £50million... Please start reporting the facts as laid down in the offical report - you are supposed to be above the levels of "fact" based reporting we might see in the Sun or Daily Star...
lee gordon
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I love Chris's quote "The sample size of the survey was very small in comparison to the actual population of Aberdeen. 10'000 objections, WOW, that's almost 5% of the city population." Its simila to a lot of comments from csp supporters yet they dont deem to realise that the petition that supported Woods Folly got less than 2000 signatures. Add this to those who supported it via the consultation and you have about 2% of the population. LOL, do they think the default setting of every Aberdonion is "Yes" unless they vocalise a "No"?
John Rutherford
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Inflation is going up. Is Sir Ian's £50m index linked? If it is, it should now be revised to about £52m to take inflation into account since he first announced his donation towards his vision.
Ludvig von Mises
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Alastdair, my wife, being a doomsayer, a moaning minnie and opposed to change of any kind would prefer to bite off her nose to spite her face and has asked me to turn down your 50 quid. Sour grapes, if you ask me - she must be jealous of the fact that you've got 50 quid! Being stuck in the 17th Century (and peering from behind her insane bangs) she would rather do without your curtains with strings attached (just what *does* "droit de singneur" mean?) which are the wrong colour anyway.
Ludvig von Mises
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Ludvig, one of the many exceptions to the budget is that there has been no calculation to make provisions for inflation. There is no costing for insurance either. It all adds up.
John Rutherford
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thats turn down the donation of "UP TO" £50 quid, Ludvig....
lee gordon
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Typical Aberdeen, gets offered £50m out of one mans pocket and we call him everything under the sun, Alasdair Johnston, I agree it wont get done by those time scales but is that not a reason for the PVA to get involved with the project asap and try and get the project moving with that in mind? I just cant see why both projects cant work together!!! PVA didnt care about the gardens they just wanted their centre, they used the "we're preserving the gardens" to get more folk to back it. Lets face it that park attracts the dregs of society and the odd student, more people sit in the grave yard on union street
Who Cares
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@ Who Cares. You haven't answered my question. Maybe you missed it, so I'll ask again: By what mechanism will the CSP secure Aberdeen's future? How will that be achieved? I'm asking these questions in good faith - I'd really like to see an answer to this. If I get a good answer, maybe I'll change my mind. Till then, I'll continue to deplore the fact that the CSP has crushed a viable proposal for something which, in my opinion, the city urgently needs if it is to compete with Dundee, let alone other cities around the world.
Ludvig von Mises
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Who, PVA wernt preserving the gardens, they were regenerating them, they were preserving the topography and character of them.. csp is erasing them for a blank canvas.. Lyndsay gordon has stated PVA will not be part of the csp regardless, for the sheer contraversy and disdain they have caused, and fair play to him.. they will find a new home, and be functioning again, while the csp draggs on and on..
Ved M
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Stuart, the Bon Accord Quarter masterplan has been shelved, the CSP is the only big dog in town, the answer to all the problems, and the future.. (sarcasm)
Ved M
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I havent mentioned aberdeens future, do you think a square or a arts centre (greenhouse) will secure Aberdeens future if so you need to get out more, or realise what brings in the money and jobs to Aberdeen and its certainly not ART. I think Sir Ian Wood has been a slightly larger part of the "MECHANISM" that has shaped Aberdeen and will continue to for years to come. Somehow I dont think we need to compete with Dundee either, have you been there recently?
Who Cares
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I have an interest on the architectural merits of Albert Speer.. so by the P&J's reckoning I'M A EFFIN NAZI!!!
jaco skinny
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Who - I'm note sure where you have been hiding lately but as you obviously haven't noticed, The Tate Modern has attracted 45 million visitors to it in the last 10 years. Go on do the math. Work out the spend, and guess where the money is going. No-one is saying that SIW hasn't brought jobs to this city, but what we are trying to say is that no-one: and I mean no-one has answered the question of just how destroying Union Terrace Gardens will preserve this city's future. Acsef do not appear to have a business plan that any responsible bank would give them a loan on. We are supposed to take them on trust. They say so, therefore it must be. People on this site are trying to explain very carefully to you where they are coming from, but you are reluctant to understand, and you have not answered the question either. There is a wonderful quote from Don Quixote "I have always heard Sancho, that doing good to base fellows is like throwing water into the sea."
dorothy bothwell
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This is getting repetative, the same points seem to be explained over and over again, with no consequence.. it's gonna be a long long haul now for the csp, resulting in nothing but an embarrasing media tussle to look back at.. the PVA eill in the meantime find a new home, and will continue to thrive as a facility, it might not be the award winning scheme that could have transformet UTG and placed this city on the cultural and architectural map, but they will non-theless find a new place. The csp, on the other hand, is yet to go through the reality section..
Ved M
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I really don't understand how the CSP will make the city more desirable for oil and gas companies that operate in the outer periphary of the town. They've hanged about for all these years with the Haudagain roundabout, Garthdee, and the constant traffic carnage around Dyce, where B list country roads are key arteries in and out. How will chopping down mature trees, lifting the park 30ft, and sticking a car park underneath provide a better business incentive than an improved transport infrastructure?
Stuart MacVicar
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@ Who Cares. Thanks for answering. I don't think that an arts centre alone will secure Aberdeen's future once the oil has declined, no. What will secure the future is innovation, entrepreneurship, research, capital availability and a well educated and motivated population. I am of course aware that Sir Ian Wood has been instrumental in providing many of these aspects of growth and prosperity in the past, which is why I'm all the more baffled that his 'future dream is a shopping scheme' (as Johnny Rotten would have it). I'm very familiar with Dundee, and witnessed its decline from a predominant manufacturing base - a sad sight indeed. However, Dundee is through the other end of this and is well placed for the new economy of the future through its levering of old- and new-media publishing. Instrumental in this has been its policy of multi-locus urban regeneration, integrated transport policy, heritage, education and promotion and subsidy of the arts. Through these policies, Dundee has a burgeoning creative sector industry which is beginning to make up for its manufacturing losses of the last 30 years. The change is remarkable, and we would be fools to dismiss the lessons which are there for us to learn. You think that 'ART' cannot bring jobs and prosperity, yet the creative sector in the UK is as big as financial services and contributes about 25% of gross value added. Much is made of how the arts are dependent upon public money, yet, in subsidy, the arts take a minute 0.08% of the national budget. They employ close to two million people and contribute £16.6bn to our exports. The theatre alone makes £2.6bn annually from a subsidy of £107m. You don't have to be an economic wizard to work out that subsidising the arts is one of the best investments any government can make; from an initially small outlay, we reap huge rewards. Now, as I have said, I don't believe that the arts alone can be responsible for securing Aberdeen's economic future, of course I don't. But they have a part to play - a part which ACSEF have already jeopardised. What I have yet to hear from you or anyone else is a convincing argument that the City Square Project can secure Aberdeen's future, as this is what ACSEF appear to be saying is the case - what do you think? The clock is ticking - according to the council there are 6 years of oil and gas production left at current levels of extraction. A shopping scheme is a very poor Plan B in my opinion, but I'm open to persuasion - please tell me how it will help.
Ludvig von Mises
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@whocares.....Aberdeen have been offered "UP TO" £50million - "UP TO" being the important wording in the official document - So what we have is - ACSEF with no real explanation as to what or how the CSP will save Aberdeen, a donation that may be "UP TO" £50million... Personally I’m all for using the gardens to their maximum potential...I just don't like it when we are bullied and cheated into accepting a project like this when Aberdeen has so, so many pressing issues and projects that should be addressed first....
lee gordon
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Who Cares. you have a point asking me if I had seen the plans when I say it will be concrete. No I have not seen the plans, there are None. That is the point. So far we have had dozens of sketches from ACSEF web site and the press. and you can see, very little garden. mostly concrete. Now I did not draw them nor print them, so perhaps you should look at ACSEF web site again. No garden, no plan, no finances in place and the ones they emulate are Manchester Exchange,(all concrete) Houston again all concrete. So why do you think I say it cannot be a garden. This is pipe dream. Our council has gone and placed Aberdeenn on the market for a pipe dream, nothing concrete (no pun intended) just that ACSEF says it will be done. How, they don't know. Ian Wood as stated that he is not donating his money to clean up the centre. No it is for the financial gain for himself and the other businessmen. If you look past the £50 million you can see clearly what is on the horizon for that area. A massive demolition of Denburn, what will go up in its place. Think about it. Not a pretty sight.
minnie mo
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There could have been compromise but Sir Wood said no. Peacock were more than willing, but he declined to accept them. It had to be his way or nothing. To turn now with aCSEF and want a compromise is rather insulting to Peacock. Why should they be relegated to below ground. Wood could have incorporated their design. The council were more worried about losing his millions than to go ahead with the original already passed and agreed plans. Money talks.
minnie mo
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I read elsewhere that Portuguese offshore wind energy giant EDP Renováveis has just decided to locate its Northern European HQ in Edinburgh. Perhaps ACSEF would better have spent time and money on directly lobbying firms like these to locate in Aberdeen *right now*, rather than wasting their political capital playing pointless property development games with the burghers of Aberdeen. I feel they are letting the renewables revolution pass Aberdeen by to some extent. This market is here now, not for the next generation.
Ludvig von Mises
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Minnie Mo, if you go on the City Square site they have a few ideas up there in the project gallery. The majority of the student designs have ample green space on them. If we could get anything like Millennium Park in Chicago we'd have something to be very proud of. It's probably ACSEF biggest problem in that they've gone about the whole process the wrong way. Coming out with artists impressions that could be construed as a concrete square to begin with was not the best way to get the public on side. Let's hope that once we do get some international design ideas people will realise that it's not going to be a concrete wasteland.
Chris Duncan
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With all respect Chris ACSEF have far greater problems... first class sycophantic b*llshitters would be one suggestion. And what exactly does 'international design ideas' mean?? Sounds desperate, can we not think for ourselves with the space we have??.. erm, evidently not. Besides Aberdeen, via PVA, were granted first class 'international' architects (London based with Spaniard at the helm) who worked majestically with the current topography of the land. But wayhey.. supersize me baby. CSP arrogant idiots.
jaco skinny
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Chris, its not what goes on top of the lid that bothers me, but what goes on beneath it, and ACSEF could have marketed this any way they wanted, it's impossible to hide the basic principle of it, and that is really what i have a problem with. As a move, its pretty dam daft, to excabate the gardens, retain the walls surrounding the hole, anf then fill it in with a four storey concrete structure, regardless how its clad or finished, its not the aesthetic of concrete i have a problem with in the slightest. There's a flat square at st nics. with amazing backdrops, why then dwarf the backdrops to utg, and scrap the undulating nature of it to get a flat site? likewise, if they were proposing excavating st nic;s to produce sunken gardens, it'd be a daft move.. i
Ved M
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Chris, whilst the imagination and enterprise displayed by the architecture students' designs you refer to is admirable, the unfortunate reality is that none of the designs are realisable - no permanent features can be constructed over the rail line; mature trees as shown cannot grow on the substructure/roof (bear in mind that the underground real estate is one of the results of Wood's "parameters" and without it, his £50m pledge is withdrawn); and no construction would pass planning if the view from Union Bridge to HMT is obscured in any way.
Richard Fraser
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Shocking comments from Andrew Dixon of Creative Scotland. In tonights EE, he states "key tasks identified were promoting a sense of place and economic prosperity". Well, according to a great many experts, he has all but destroyed the latter by backing a project with no established business plan, no defined content and at enormous cost to the local economy. As for the former key task, a vast, anonymous, windswept, area will give us more of a sense of place than an instantly recognisable and much loved, historical gardens? I think not. God help Art in Scotland if this man's in charge!
Concerned Citizen
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How to run a company. Employ a plumber to run the NHS, A doctor to run the Scottish Art council. and now we have a new position Creative Scotland, now what was his employment before this role. Did it have anything to do with Art, Architecture or what. And Chris nobody is saying that the students drawings were bad. but they cannot be used. The work has to be carried out by an established Architect. especially an international acclaimed one. Look at some of her work, And we are not in America. Seems that Wood has spent too long there.
minnie mo
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Went past the gardens at lunch time today, there was all of nine people in there and that included people just walking through. Despite its Victorian grandeur the gardens are just an unused hole in the ground that cuts Aberdeen in half. 100 Arts Centres wouldn't change that. The civic square is a fantasticly ambitious solution to this and it's great that the head of an influential Scottish organisation thinks so too. The
Duncan Massey
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Duncan, I had a family picnic in the gardens on Thursday between 1700-1800 - we sat in sunshine and I reckon there were at least 100 folk in the gardens. It depends when you look and what the weather's doing, pretty much like any other outdoor space. I also think the loss of what is essentially a wee mature city centre forest of about 80 rather magnificent trees is quite a high price to pay. As is £300 million+.
Alasdair Johnston
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Those with severe misgivings WRT the CSQ should avoid the temptation to react to the reporting of Andrew Dixon of Creative Scotland's with brickbats. He has not endorsed the CSQ - he's walking a fine line like the consummate politician which he is. Bear in mind that these comments are being reported through the lens of a very pro-biased press. The article bears careful re-reading. His words do not praise the CSP at all, he praises *the site*. WRT Sir Ian's Woods offer of cash, he uses litotes to deliver the back-hander "there is no lack of ambition or vision there". The rest of his words are of a nature which could equally be turned against the CSP. If we read *just the words that Dixon has said* without the frame that the P&J put them in, we might put a very different interpretation on his meaning. A ringing endorsement of the CSQ they are not. We should be aware that this man is on the side of the arts and has help achieve great things in the North of England. All parties should listen very carefully to him. He will then do us the courtesy of listening very carefully to us.
Ludvig von Mises
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Good luck finding out how exactly the CSP will ensure the economic future of the city Ludivg. Like you, I thought that investing in education, training and infrastructure might do it. PVA was never intended as the sole catalyst to regenerate Aberdeen, but CSP is. Sir Ian’s right that Aberdeen has fared especialy badly in terms of incoming funds to regenerate the place, but that doesn’t mean we have to jump at the only ill conceived plan that comes along. On three occasions I asked ACSEF and Sir Ian, how this would ensure Aberdeen’s economic future more than spending the same amount on for example, PVA, a square in front of Marischal and perhaps even covering the road and rail at the denburn, but the closest I got to a reply was ‘it just will’.. SCDI weren’t convinced, and nor am I. I do hope Peacock mannage to continue despite this huge blow to them. They do provide great value to the city, but since the CSP is unlikely to be ready for long after they need a new home, they can’t be part of it. (I was told that if all goes as hoped for CSP, they aim to copmplete for the end of 2015), and that was months ago when the feasibility was still saying 2012. But what would I know about the holes in their plan? I’m part of a lunatic fringe of architects, accountants, lawyers, artists, writers, business leaders , internationally acclaimed musicians and assorted other Aberdeen citizens – about a hundred of whom were in the gardens at the same time as me on Thursday lunchtime.
Michael Hodgson
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If Andrew has said that at all, Ludvig. Much like Larry Speck (of discovery green in Houston) was intimated to have said that it would be "phenomenal" in the EE, when in fact he knew nothing of either project and wasn't even asked to comment on either project, but simply on "how Discovery Green works and the kind of contribution such parks can make to cities in general."
Michael Hodgson
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From reading the EE report Andrew Dixon clearly fails to understand that PVA's lease expires within 2 years - they simply cannot wait around for the 10 years or so that it would take the city square project to gain planning permission and be built. And that's without even beginning to contemplate the obstacles it faces outwith that simple concept - funding gap, planning gain, etc etc. Poor show from somebody who one would imagine ought to be better briefed than that.
Richard Fraser
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Michael and Ludwig, I fear that you haven't had the unpleasant experience of browsing today's EE, in which direct quotes from Andrew Dixon leave absolutely no wriggle room for him. He even compares PVA to an orchestra in Gateshead who were upset about not getting what they wanted and couldn't see the "bigger picture" about economic benefits, which is quite frankly astonishingly ignorant stuff. I appreciate the P&J quotes are somewhat anodyne and have been spun, but the EE quotes are really appallingly unambiguous. He might as well have been speaking on behalf of Acsef.
Richard Fraser
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Thanks for that Richard - I can't get to a papershop right now - could you relay some quotes - the report doesn't appear on the EE website. But, apparently Christine Bleakly has honored an Inverurie postie, so it can't all be bad :)
Ludvig von Mises
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Andrew Dixon,incoming boss of the new Creative Scotland (the old Arts Council), already seems to have fallen under the spell of the Wood publicity machine (was all this written for him by ASCEF?). Instead he should use his own eyes and brain and look around to see what a fantastic asset the Denburn Valley is and what potential it has if sensitively developed (i.e. not concreted over). If this is a sample of the new Creative Scotland, God help us. Roddy Millar
Roddy Millar
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http://www.aberdeenburgesses.com/images/Sandy%20Milne.jpg?0.2563682850541734 (is that oor pal Sandy?)--------------- http://www.aberdeenburgesses.com/images/Sandra%20Stephen.jpg?0.7226387314254457 (that's the provost's wife) --------
Philip Thompson
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The money would be better spent filling in the holes in the road and not a natural hole housing the gardens.
alison mcgregor
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This was interesting in today's herald. http://www.heraldscotland.com/arts-ents/more-arts-entertainment-news/arts-chief-urges-co-operation-over-aberdeen-development-1.1031032
Michael Hodgson
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